Regarding the Late Gus Dur

The press is now reporting that the family of the late Gus Dur has said they would like to meet me.

I would be very happy to do so.  I hope we can arrange it.

According to the reports, Alissa Qotrunnada Munawaroh Rahman (Alissa Wahid), the former President's eldest daughter, said they would like to talk to me about the comments that General Prabowo made to me about her father.

(For a report on my discussions with Prabowo see "'Do I have the guts,' Prabowo asked, 'am I ready to be called a fascist dictator?'" and "'Apa saya cukup punya nyali,' tanya Prabowo, 'apa saya siap jika disebut 'diktator fasis'?").

I hope that General Prabowo and the TNI (the Indonesian Armed Forces) will not try to stop me from meeting the Wahid family.

I note that Prabowo's campaign said that TNI was ready to capture me (See "A Response and Several Challenges to General Prabowo" and "Tanggapan dan Beberapa Tantangan Saya untuk Jenderal Prabowo") and that the press has reported that I have become a "TNI Operational Target" ("Jurnalis Asing Allan Nairn Jadi TO TNI").

I would ask the TNI to clarify if they are acting on their own behalf or on Prabowo's.

Allan Nairn


Link to view translation of this post in Bahasa Indonesia

Link ke "SIKAP KELUARGA KH ABDURRAHMAN WAHID MENGENAI KONTROVERSI WAWANCARA BP. PRABOWO SUBIANTO YANG DIANGGAP HINA GUS DUR"

Link to view "Breaking News: Indonesian Special Forces, Intelligence, in Covert Operation to Influence Election"


Links to news reports:
"Keluarga Gus Dur Ingin Temui Allan Nairn terkait Ucapan Prabowo"  
"Putri Alm Gus Dur Ingin Temui Allan Nairn Konfirmasi Pernyataan Prabowo"
"Keluarga Gus Dur Ingin Temui Allan Nairn" 


NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

Tanggapan dan Beberapa Tantangan Saya untuk Jenderal Prabowo

Dalam kampanyenya hari ini, tim Jenderal Prabowo Subianto menyatakan bahwa TNI siap menangkap saya. Mereka klaim bahwa saya adalah bagian dari konspirasi pemerintah/bisnes Amerika Serikat terhadap. (Lihat tautan di bawah).

Juru bicara kampanye Budi Purnomo mengatakan, "Allan Nairn merupakan seorang jurnalis Amerika yang dikenal memiliki hubungan yang tidak baik dengan TNI. Menurutnya, Allan bahkan tercatat tujuh kali pernah masuk ke Indonesia secara ilegal.  'TNI bahkan pernah menyatakan akan menangkap Allan jika ia ketahuan kembali ke Indonesia,' jelasnya." (Merdeka.com, 26 Juni, 2014). 

Sekarang saya tengah berada di Indonesia sehingga jika TNI ingin menangkap saya, mereka bisa melakukannya. (Informasi mengenai mengapa pemerintahan Presiden Soeharto serta TNI melarang saya masuk ke Indonesia sebagai "ancaman bagi keamanan nasional," lihat beberapa posting sebelumnya tentang perbincangan Jenderal Prabowo dan saya)

Jika Jenderal Prabowo ingin saya ditangkap karena apa yang telah saya tulis tentang dirinya, saya minta dia menyatakanya sendiri, bukan lewat jurubicara.

Menyoal tuduhan konyol bahwa saya bekerja sama dengan Amerika Serikat, siapa pun yang akrab dengan karya-karya saya, pasti tahu bahwa saya adalah musuh pemerintah Amerika Serikat beserta kepentingan korporasi-korporasinya.

Salah satu kritik utama saya kepada pemerintah dan bisnes Amerika Serikat selama 40 tahun terakhir adalah kebijakan-kebijakan mereka yang menghisap dan membunuh orang-orang miskin di seluruh dunia, termasuk di Indonesia.

Secara terbuka, saya menyerukan agar setiap presiden Amerika Serikat yang masih hidup, diadili dan dipenjarakan, karena mereka telah menyokong kekuatan-kekuatan yang membunuh warga sipil.

Satu dari banyak pihak yang dibantu Amerika Serikat dan membunuh warga sipil adalah TNI.  Dalam tubuh TNI  sendiri, Jenderal Prabowo sempat menjadi orang terdekat serta dilindungi Amerika Serikat. (Prabowo pernah menggambarkan kepada saya bahwa dirinya adalah "anak kesayangan Amerika").

Dalam pandangan saya, dua fakta terpenting tentang Prabowo adalah, pertama, ia membantai warga sipil, dan kedua, ia membunuh mereka dengan sokongan Amerika Serikat.

Saya ajukan beberapa tantangan untuk Anda, Jenderal:

Jenderal Prabowo, bersediakah Anda bergabung bersama saya untuk menyerukan agar para presiden Amerika Serikat diadili?

Terkait eksploitasi yang dilakukan Amerika Serikat terhadap Indonesia dan isu kontrak-kontrak tambang, sudikah Anda, Jenderal Prabowo, bergabung bersama saya guna menyerukan agar Freeport McMoRan diusir dari Indonesia?

Tulisan saya tentang Prabowo akurat adanya. Jika Jenderal Prabowo ingin menyangkalnya, saya mempersilakan beliau untuk mengajukan gugatan pencemaran nama baik dan menghadapi saya di pengadilan Indonesia.

Allan Nairn


Link to view this post English
Link to "Prabowo, Bagian 2: "Saya anak kesayangan Amerika."  Sang Jenderal Nasionalis dan Amerika Serikat."
Link to "Breaking News: Indonesian Special Forces, Intelligence, in Covert Operation to Influence Election"
Link ke "Breaking News: Operasi Rahasia Kopassus dan BIN Untuk Mempengaruhi Hasil Pemilu"

Tautan-tautan tentang pernyataan kampanye Prabowo:
"Jurnalis Asing Allan Nairn Jadi TO TNI"
"Kubu Prabowo sebut Allan Nairn 7 kali masuk RI secara ilegal"
"Konspirasi Jurnalis Asing Tak Akan Gembosi Prabowo"
"Timses cium ada campur tangan AS jegal Prabowo"
"PKS: Amerika harus terima kalau Prabowo jadi presiden"
"Bantah Wawancara Prabowo dengan Allan Nairn, Tantowi: Dia Musuh Negara"



NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

A Response and Several Challenges to General Prabowo

General Prabowo's campaign said today that the Indonesian Armed Forces (TNI) are ready to capture me, and claimed that I am part of a US government/business conspiracy against Prabowo.  (See reference links below).

Campaign spokesman Budi Purnomo is reported as saying that "Allan Nairn is a journalist who is known to not have a good relationship with the TNI [Indonesian Armed Forces].  He said that Allan has even been listed as having entered Indonesia illegally seven times.  'TNI has even said that they are going to capture Allan if they learn he has returned to Indonesia,' he stated."  ["Allan Nairn merupakan seorang jurnalis Amerika yang dikenal memiliki hubungan yang tidak baik dengan TNI. Menurutnya, Allan bahkan tercatat tujuh kali pernah masuk ke Indonesia secara ilegal.  'TNI bahkan pernah menyatakan akan menangkap Allan jika ia ketahuan kembali ke Indonesia,' jelasnya." (Merdeka.com, June 26, 2014)].   

I am currently in Indonesia so if the TNI would like to capture me, they can.  

(For background on Suharto/TNI banning me from Indonesia as "a threat to national security" see the previous postings about my discussions with General Prabowo).

If General Prabowo wants me to be captured because of what I've written about him, then I request that he say so himself.

As to the amusing charge that I am working with the US, anyone familiar with my work knows that I am an adversary of the US state and of US corporate interests.

One of my main criticisms of the US for the past 40 years has been of their practice of exploiting and killing poor people around the world, including in Indonesia.

I have publicly called for every living US president to be tried and jailed for sponsoring forces that kill civilians.

One of the many US-backed forces that kills civilians is the TNI, and General Prabowo was the US's closest protege in the TNI (Prabowo described himself to me as "the Americans' fair-haired boy").

In my view, the two most important facts about Prabowo are, first, that he killed civilians, and second, that he killed them while being sponsored by the United States.

I have some challenges for the general:

General Prabowo, will you join me in calling for the US Presidents to be put on trial?

And regarding US exploitation of Indonesia and the issue of mining contracts, General Prabowo, will you join me in calling for the expulsion of Freeport McMoRan from Indonesia?

As to my writing about Prabowo, it is accurate.  If the General wants to deny this, I invite him to face me in the Indonesian courts by filing criminal libel charges against me.

Allan Nairn


Link to view translation of this post in Bahasa Indonesia
Link to view "Breaking News: Indonesian Special Forces, Intelligence, in Covert Operation to Influence Election"

Links re. Prabowo campaign statements:
"Jurnalis Asing Allan Nairn Jadi TO TNI"
"Kubu Prabowo sebut Allan Nairn 7 kali masuk RI secara ilegal"
"Konspirasi Jurnalis Asing Tak Akan Gembosi Prabowo"
"Timses cium ada campur tangan AS jegal Prabowo"
"PKS: Amerika harus terima kalau Prabowo jadi presiden"
"Bantah Wawancara Prabowo dengan Allan Nairn, Tantowi: Dia Musuh Negara"

NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

"Apa saya cukup punya nyali," tanya Prabowo, "apa saya siap jika disebut 'diktator fasis'?"

22 Juni 2014

Oleh Allan Nairn

Tangal 9 Juli, Indonesia, negeri dengan kepadatan penduduk berperingkat keempat sedunia, akan mengadakan pemilu. Pemilu kali ini berpotensi menaikkan Jenderal (purn) Prabowo Subianto ke kursi kepresidenan.

Jenderal Prabowo, kakak kandung seorang milyarder, adalah bekas menantu dari diktator Suharto. Orang yang dilatih oleh dan mendapat sokongan dari Amerika ini terlibat dalam kasus-kasus penyiksaan, penculikan, dan pembantaian massal.

Pada bulan Juni dan Juli 2001, saya berbincang-bincang dengan Prabowo. 

Kami berjumpa di kantor perusahaannya di Mega Kuningan, Jakarta.

Saya menawarkan kepadanya wawancara anonim (tanpa nama). 

Waktu itu saya tengah menyelidiki sejumlah kasus pembunuhan yang terjadi baru-baru itu. Ia rupa-rupanya melibatkan tentara Indonesia. Saya berharap pembicaraan off-the-record antara saya dan Jendral Prabowo bisa mengungkap detail dari kasus-kasus tersebut. 

Awalnya saya kecewa. Prabowo hampir tidak memberikan keterangan yang membantu mengenai pembunuhan-pembunuhan itu . 

Namun akhirnya kami malah mengobrol selama nyaris empat jam. 

Kesan yang saya tangkap waktu itu, Prabowo mengeluarkan komentar-komentar yang tidak bersangkutan. 

Prabowo berbicara tentang fasisme, demokrasi, kebijakan membunuh dalam tubuh TNI/ABRI, serta hubungan antara dirinya dengan Pentagon dan Intelijen Amerika yang sudah berlangsung lama dan tertutup.

Di masa itu, ia sama sekali tidak berkuasa dan terisolir secara politis. Jenderal-jenderal lain adalah ancamannya.

Namun karena saat ini Prabowo nyaris merebut kekuasaan, saya kembali memeriksa catatan-catatan wawancara saya.  Saya jadi sadar bahwa apa yang ia katakan pada waktu itu menjadi relevan di saat ini.

-----

Saya telah mencoba menghubungi Jenderal Prabowo. Saya ingin meminta izin untuk membahas komentar-komentarnya di muka publik. Saya tidak mendapat balasan dan saya pun memutuskan untuk meneruskan rencana tersebut. 

Saya pikir kerugian yang saya hadapi ketika melanggar anonimitas yang saya janjikan ke Prabowo, tidak sebanding dengan kerugian yang lebih besar jika rakyat Indonesia pergi ke tempat pemungutan suara tanpa mengetahui fakta-fakta penting yang selama ini tidak bisa mereka akses.

-----

Saat itu saya dan Prabowo berdiskusi panjang tentang pembantaian Santa Cruz.  

Dalam pembantaian tersebut, militer Indonesia membunuh setidaknya 271 penduduk sipil.  

Kejadiannya berlangsung pada 12 November 1991 di Dili, di sebelah luar area pemakaman yang dipadati laki-laki, perempuan dan anak-anak.  Di tahun itu, Timor-Timur masih merupakan wilayah yang diduduki oleh militer Indonesia. 

Kebetulan saya ada di sana ketika pembantaian itu terjadi. Saya selamat.  

Prabowo mengatakan kepada saya bahwa perintah membunuh itu "goblok" [“imbecilic”]. (Dia katakan bahwa ia sempat mengira perintah tersebut datang dari Jenderal Benny Murdani, tapi ia sendiri tidak yakin.)

Keberatan Prabowo bukan pada kenyataan bahwa militer Indonesia telah membunuh warga sipil, tapi pada fakta  bahwa pembunuhan tersebut dilakukan di hadapan saya dan saksi-saksi lainnya yang bisa melaporkan kasus tersebut dan menggerakan suara dunia internasional. 

“Santa Cruz mematikan kami secara politis!” suara Prabowo meninggi. “Di situlah kekalahan kami” [“Santa Cruz killed us politically!,” Prabowo exclained. “It was the defeat!”].

“Anda tidak semestinya membunuh warga sipil di depan pers internasional,” ujar Jenderal Prabowo. “Komandan-komandan itu bisa saja membantai di desa-desa terpencil sehingga tak diketahui siapapun, tapi bukan di ibukota provinsi!” [“You don’t massacre civilians in front of the world press,” General Prabowo said.  “Maybe commanders do it in villages where no one will ever know, but not in the provincial capital!”].

Pernyataan tersebut jadi semacam pengakuan bahwa militer terbiasa melakukan pembantaian. Pernyataan itu juga membuktikan bahwa Prabowo tidak berkeberatan jika pembantaian dilakukan di tempat-tempat yang  “tak diketahui siapapun” [“where no one will ever know”].

Pada bulan September 1983, serangkaian pembantaian serupa terjadi di desa terpencil Kraras yang terletak di  gunung Bibileu, Timor Leste.

Di kemudian hari, Komisi Kebenaran dan Rekonsiliasi di Timor Timur yang disokong PBB (CAVR) melaporkan pembantaian Kraras:

"421. Komisi menerima bukti bahwa Prabowo ditempatkan di sektor bagian timur Timor-Leste saat itu. Beberapa sumber menyatakan kepada Komisi bahwa Prabowo terlibat dalam operasi untuk membawa penduduk sipil turun dari Gunung Bibeleu, dimana tidak lama kemudian beberapa ratus orang dibunuh ABRI. Komisi juga menerima bukti keterlibatan Kopassus dalam pembunuhan-pembunuhan ini (lihat Bab 7.2.: Pembunuhan Tidak Sah dan Penghilangan Paksa).” 

Seiring Suharto terus menaikkan pangkat Prabowo, komando-komando sang jenderal kian nyata jejaknya dalam sejumlah pembantaian massal lainnya.  Salah satunya adalah pembantaian massal di Papua Barat. Dalam kasus tersebut, para anak buah Prabowo menyamar sebagai anggota Palang Merah Internasional (ICRC). Operasi rahasia ini juga terdengar sampai Jakarta, kota dimana mereka menghilangkan aktivis-aktivis pro-demokrasi.  

-----

Fakta bahwa saya dan Prabowo sepakat untuk duduk bersama pun agak ganjil.  

Saya sendiri sebelumnya telah menyerukan agar Prabowo diadili dan dipenjarakan bersama-sama para sponsor Amerika-nya. Saya juga ikut serta menggalang kampanye di akar rumput guna  menuntut pemerintah AS memutus bantuannya kepada militer Indonesia. Kampanye ini berhasil. Saya dilarang masuk ke Indonesia, karena dinyatakan sebagai "ancaman bagi keamanan nasional", sementara para anak buah Jenderal Prabowo telah menyiksa teman-teman saya. 

Tapi bagi saya pribadi, saya telah berhitung dengan cermat bahwa pembicaraan bersama Prabowo tidak akan sia-sia, jika kasus-kasus pembunuhan yang masih segar kala itu terbantu pemecahannya. 

Saya tak tahu persis apa gunanya perbincangan tersebut untuk Prabowo. Namun, saya mendapat kesan bahwa ia menikmati kesempatan untuk membicarakan profesinya, serta bertukar pikiran dengan seorang musuh.  

-----

Saat itu, dua tahun setelah Soeharto jatuh, Indonesia memiliki presiden sipil. 

Abdurrachman Wahid, dikenal sebagai Gus Dur, adalah seorang ulama yang secara hukum dinyatakan buta.

Militer Indonesia merongrong otoritas presiden Gus Dur. Salah satu cara yang mereka tempuh adalah memfasilitasi serangan-serangan teror antar-etnis/agama di Maluku. Tiga minggu setelah pertemuan kedua saya dengan Prabowo, Gus Dur diberhentikan dan digulingkan dari kursi presiden. 

Kini Gus Dur seringkali dikenang dengan sukacita. Bahkan kampanye Prabowo pun memanfaatkan rekaman video pembicaraan Gus Dur.  

Namun dalam perbincangan tersebut, di hadapan saya Prabowo tak henti-hentinya mengecam Gus Dur dan demokrasi. 

“Indonesia belum siap untuk demokrasi,” kata Prabowo. "Di negara kami ini masih ada kanibal, masih ada kerumunan yang bikin rusuh"  [“Indonesia is not ready for democracy,” Prabowo said. “We still have cannibals, there are violent mobs.”].

Indonesia perlu, lanjut Prabowo, "rezim otoriter yang jinak" [“a benign authoritarian regime”].  Ia katakan bahwa keragaman etnis dan agama adalah penghalang demokrasi.

Mengenai Gus Dur, Prabowo mengatakan: 

"Militer pun bahkan tunduk pada presiden buta! Bayangkan! Coba lihat dia, bikin malu saja!" [“The military even obeys a blind president!  Imagine!  Look at him, he’s embarrasing!”].

"Lihat Tony Blair, Bush, Putin. Mereka muda, ganteng—dan sekarang presiden kita buta!" [“Look at Tony Blair, Bush, Putin.  Young, ganteng (handsome) -- and we have a blind man!”].

Prabowo menginginkan sosok yang berbeda. 

Dia menyebut Jenderal Pervez Musharraf dari Pakistan. 

Musharraf telah menangkap perdana menterinya yang sipil dan mendirikan kediktatoran. Prabowo menyatakan kekagumannya pada Musharraf. 

Prabowo kelihatan berpikir keras apakah dirinya sesuai dengan sosok yang ia bayangkan.  Apakah ia mampu menjadi Musharraf-nya Indonesia. 

"Apa saya cukup punya nyali," tanya Prabowo, "apa saya siap jika disebut 'diktator fasis'?" [“Do I have the guts,” Prabowo asked, “am I ready to be called a fascist dictator?”].

"Musharraf punya nyali," kata Prabowo. [“Musharraf had the guts,” Prabowo said.]

Terkait dirinya sendiri, Prabowo membiarkan pertanyaan tersebut tak terjawab. 

  

Bersambung ke Bagian 2: “Prabowo: ‘Saya anak kesayangan Amerika’ ['I was the Americans' fair-haired boy'] Sang Jenderal Nasionalis dan Intelijen Amerika”

Link to view this post in English
Link to view "A Response and Several Challenges to General Prabowo"
Link to view "Tangappan dan Beberapa Tantangan Saya untuk Jenderal Prabowo"
Link to view "Breaking News: Indonesian Special Forces, Intelligence, in Covert Operation to Influence Election"
Link ke "Breaking News: Operasi Rahasia Kopassus dan BIN Untuk Mempengaruhi Hasil Pemilu"

Link ke "SIKAP KELUARGA KH ABDURRAHMAN WAHID MENGENAI KONTROVERSI WAWANCARA BP. PRABOWO SUBIANTO YANG DIANGGAP HINA GUS DUR"



NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

News: "Do I have the guts," Prabowo asked, "am I ready to be called a fascist dictator?"

By Allan Nairn

On July 9 the world's fourth most populous country, Indonesia, will hold an election that could result in General Prabowo Subianto becoming president.

General Prabowo, the brother of a billionaire, was the son-in-law of the dictator Suharto, and as a US trainee and protege was implicated in torture, kidnap and mass murder.

In June and July, 2001 I had two long meetings with Prabowo.

We met at his corporate office in Mega Kuningan, Jakarta.

I offered Prabowo anonymity. 

I was looking into recent murders apparently involving the Indonesian army, and was hoping that if he could speak off-the-record General Prabowo might divulge details.

I came away disappointed.  Prabowo shed little light those killings.

But we ended up speaking for nearly four hours.   

My impression then was that his comments were extraneous.

Prabowo talked about fascism, democracy, army massacre policy, and his long, close relationship with the Pentagon and US intelligence.  

But at that time he was out of power and in political isolation. Other generals were the threat. 

But now Prabowo is on the verge of assuming state power.  And looking back at my notes I realize that some of what he said has now become relevant.

I have contacted General Prabowo asking permission to discuss his comments publicly, but not having heard back from him have decided to go ahead anyway.

I think the harm of breaking my anonymity promise to the General is outweighed by what would be the greater harm of Indonesians going to the polls having been denied access to facts they might find pertinent.

-----

Prabowo and I had a revealing discussion about the Santa Cruz Massacre.  

This was an Indonesian armed forces slaughter of at least 271 civilians.

It was done on November 12, 1991 in Dili, occupied East Timor, outside a cemetery where a crowd of men, women and children had gathered.

I happened to have been present at that massacre and managed to survive it.

Prabowo told me that the army order to do those killings had been "imbecilic."  (He said he thought the order came from Gen. Benny Murdani, but said he wasn't certain).

Prabowo's complaint was not with the fact that the army had murdered civilians, but rather that they had done so in front of me and other witnesses who were then able to report the massacre and mobilize the outside world.

"Santa Cruz killed us politically!," Prabowo exclaimed.  "It was the defeat!"

"You don't massacre civilians in front of the world press," General Prabowo said. "Maybe commanders do it in villages where no one will ever know, but not in the provincial capital!"

The remark was telling as an acknowledgement that the army routinely massacres, and in establishing that Prabowo finds this acceptable if the killings are done in places where "no one will ever know."

In September, 1983, there was just such a series of massacres around the little-seen village of Kraras on the mountain of Bibileo, East Timor.

The official UN-chartered Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor, the CAVR, later reported regarding the Kraras slaughter: 

"421.  The Commission received evidence that Prabowo was stationed in the eastern sector of Timor-Leste at this time. Several sources have told the Commission that he was involved in the operation to bring the civilian population down from Mount Bibileo, shortly after which several hundred were killed by ABRI [the Indonesian Armed Forces]. The Commission also received evidence of Kopassus being involved in these killings. (See Chapter 7.2: Unlawful Killings and Enforced Disappearances)."

As Suharto pulled Prabowo up through the ranks, his commands were implicated in other mass murders, including one in West Papua where Prabowo's men masqueraded as the International Red Cross (ICRC), and the now well-known covert operation in Jakarta where they disappeared pro-democracy activists.

-----

The fact that Prabowo and I had agreed to sit down was in itself a bit unusual. 

I had called for Prabowo to be tried and jailed along with his US sponsors, and had helped lead a successful grassroots campaign to sever US aid to the Indonesian armed forces.  I had been banned from Indonesia as "a threat to national security," and General Prabowo's men had tortured friends of mine.

But, for my part, I had made the cold calculation that if it helped solve the recent murders sitting down with Prabowo would be worth it.   

For Prabowo's part, I do not know, but I did get the impression that he enjoyed the chance to talk shop and compare notes with an adversary.

-----

At that time, two years after Suharto's fall,  Indonesia had a civilian president.

He was the blind cleric, Abdurrachman Wahid, popularly known as Gus Dur.  

The Indonesian armed forces had undermined Gus Dur's presidential authority.  They had done so in part by facilitating ethnic/ religious terror attacks in the Malukus.  Three weeks after my second meeting with Prabowo, Gus Dur was impeached and ousted.

Today, Gus Dur is often remembered fondly.  The current Prabowo campaign uses footage of him.

But that day, to me, Prabowo ranted about Gus Dur and democracy.

"Indonesia is not ready for democracy," Prabowo said.  "We still have cannibals, there are violent mobs."   

Indonesia needs, Prabowo said, "a benign authoritarian regime."  He said the many ethnicities and religions precluded democracy.

Prabowo said, regarding Gus Dur:

"The military even obeys a blind president!  Imagine!  Look at him, he's embarrassing!"

"Look at Tony Blair, Bush, Putin.  Young, ganteng [handsome] -- and we have a blind man!"

Prabowo called for a different model.

He mentioned Pakistan's General Pervez Musharraf.   

Musharraf had arrested his country's civilian prime minister and imposed dictatorship.  Prabowo said he admired him greatly.

Prabowo ruminated on whether he could measure up, whether he could be an Indonesian Musharraf.

"Do I have the guts," Prabowo asked, "am I ready to be called a fascist dictator?"

"Musharraf had the guts, " Prabowo said.  

As to himself, he left that question unanswered.

-----
End of Part 1.  

Coming Up,  Part 2:  Prabowo: "I was the Americans' fair-haired boy."  The Nationalist General and US Intelligence.

Link to view translation of this post in Bahasa Indonesia

Link to "Breaking News: Indonesian Special Forces, Intelligence, in Covert Operation to Influence Election"

Link ke "SIKAP KELUARGA KH ABDURRAHMAN WAHID MENGENAI KONTROVERSI WAWANCARA BP. PRABOWO SUBIANTO YANG DIANGGAP HINA GUS DUR"

                                                                 



NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

Notes on Syria

President Obama is due to speak tonight on Syria and it is unclear what he will say but it is safe to assume that the President will assume that he has the right to bomb Syria if he wants to.

It's a prerogative that all US presidents assume, the right to kill any foreigner anywhere.   It is never in question.  The only matters debated: which foreigners shall we kill, for what purpose?



NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

Follow Guatemala's Lead: Convene a Genocide Case Grand Jury.

A Guatemalan court has ordered a criminal investigation of all others involved in the Rios Montt crimes.

It won't be easy.  Prosecutors and judges will be risking their careers and lives.  Witnesses will know that they might die if they come forward to give evidence.  

But Guatemalans have already shown great courage in advancing the Rios Montt case.  It's time for Americans to do the same and convene a US grand jury on Guatemala.

US prosecutors could aid law enforcement in two fundamental ways: first, with information and second, if warranted, with indictments.

The US, which supported Rios Montt's army, has vast stores of information.  

It should all be turned over to the prosecutors in Guatemala.  

A proper disclosure would include still-classified White House, Pentagon, NSA, CIA and State Department documents, as well as US intercepts of communications among General Rios Montt and his army.

It's important to remember that at the time of these crimes, as now, the US was not a mere outside observer: it was a full-fledged participant. 

US bombs were dropped from US-supplied aircraft on fleeing Mayan villagers.  US personnel were present in Guatemala, training and giving advice to the Rios Montt army.  US personnel were inside the G-2, the notorious military intelligence and targeting unit.  The CIA carried many top Guatemalan army commanders on its payroll.  

And Rios Montt, as he was committing the crimes, got political support from President Reagan, personally.  

So the US has responsibilities here, moral and political but also legal.

The US should now confess to Guatemalan law-enforcement.  

It should tell them everything: what it knew, what it did, who it paid.

And the US should also indict and try any current or former US official who was accessory or accomplice -- or worse -- to the Rios Montt crimes.

And, of course, it should also be ready to comply with its responsibilities by being willing to extradite any US officials charged in Guatemala.

US prosecutors have an obligation to take these steps.   

This case involves crimes of the highest magnitude.

US law enforcers who step forward might indeed run some career risk.

But unlike so many Guatemalans so far, they can be pretty sure they'll live.


Allan Nairn


(For some references re. the US role see posts of April 18 and May 9, 2013)


NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

Additional Evidence on Perez Molina

General Otto Perez Molina, the President of Guatemala, didn't want his name coming up during the Rios Montt trial. (See post of April 18).

But one witness implicated Perez Molina in the atrocities, and today's Wall Street Journal notes that additional testimony may be available.

Nicholas Casey reports: "Another witness in the [Rios Montt genocide] trial, a Mayan peasant named Tiburcio Utuy, also testified in a separate investigation against Mr. Rios Montt in Spain that Mr. Perez Molina ordered him to be tortured in the 1980s.  Mr. Utuy wasn't asked about Mr. Prez Molina in the Guatemala trial because the current president wasn't the trial's focus... 

In a 2010 article* about human rights crimes related to torture accusations against Mr. Perez Molina during 1982 and 1983, The Wall Street Journal interviewed six other villagers from towns he commanded who accused him and soldiers he commanded in killing civilians whom the witnesses said had nothing to do with rebels.  Among those who named Mr. Perez Molina in the killings were two of the men he commanded at the time." (Nicholas Casey, "Guatemala Genocide Case Pressures Leader," The Wall Street Journal, May 13, 2013). 

Rios Montt is in prison but those who carried out his plan are still free.  

If serious investigations are permitted, there will be no shortage of evidence.

Allan Nairn

*The Wall Street Journal has corrected its piece to note that the witness article ran in 2011, not in 2010.


NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

Still Alive

One of the many profound ramifications of the genocide conviction of Rios Montt is that there is now new incentive for additional witnesses to come forward.

It's one thing to risk your life when the chance of justice seems remote, but it's another when it starts to look like a fair hearing might indeed be possible.

After Judge Jazmin Barrios delivered the verdict in the Rios Montt trial, the Maya Ixil survivors in the audience -- many of whom had given testimony -- stood up, crossed their arms across their chests, and bowed to the court, saying "Thank you."

Any uncaught murderer watching that had to feel a sudden chill.

His victims are safely dead and gone.  

But those who know what he did?  Still alive.


Allan Nairn


NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

A Formal Legal Mandate for a Criminal Investigation of Guatemala's Current President, Perez Molina

General Efrain Rios Montt has been found guilty of genocide and crimes against humanity.  He has already begun his "irrevocable" sentence of 80 years in prison.  

The court that convicted Rios Montt has also ordered the attorney general to launch an immediate investigation of "all others" connected to the crimes.

This important and unexpected aspect of the verdict means that there now exists a formal legal mandate for a criminal investigation of the President of Guatemala, General Otto Perez Molina.

As President, Perez Molina enjoys temporary legal immunity, but that immunity does not block the prosecutors from starting their investigation.

Last night, in a live post-verdict interview on CNN Espanol TV, Perez Molina was confronted about his own role during the Rios Montt massacres.

The interviewer, Fernando del Rincon, repeatedly asked Perez Molina about his filmed interviews with me when he was Rios Montt's Ixil field commander.

At that time, Perez Molina, operating under the alias "Major Tito Arias," commanded troops who described to me how, under orders, they killed civilians.

At first, Perez Molina refused to answer, then CNN's satellite link to him was cut off, then, after it was restored minutes later, Perez Molina replied that women, children and "complete families" had in fact aided guerrillas.

Offering what appears to be a rationale for killing families may not be a sufficient defense.   

But that is up to Perez Molina.

He too deserves his day in court.

Allan Nairn 

NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me

The Guatemala Genocide Case: Testimony Notes Regarding Rios Montt

By Allan Nairn


The case against General Rios Montt has included vast amounts of evidence.

My notes for my own scheduled testimony (for what happened see post of April 18) included the following observations:

When Rios Montt seized power on March 23, 1982, he immediately seized control of and transformed army operations.

He cut back on the urban assassinations, which had become counterproductive, and increased the massacres of the rural Mayans, the army's main "internal enemy." 

He took a sweep tactic that had been pioneered by General Benedicto Lucas Garcia and made it a systematic strategy, applied across the Northwest Highlands.

A CIA report observed of Benedicto's -- later Rios Montt's -- method:  "In mid-February 1982 the Guatemalan army reinforced its existing force in the central El Quiche department and launched a sweep operation into the Ixil triangle.  The commanding officers of the units involved have been instructed to destroy all towns and villages which are cooperating with the Guerrilla Army of the Poor (EGP) and eliminate all sources of resistance.  Civilians in the area who agree to collaborate with the army and who seek army protection are to be well treated and cared for in refugee camps for the duratiion of the operation."

In practice, the civilians in the camps were often survivors of army massacres who were subject to vast coercion including execution, torture,  rape, forced labor, and forced service in the "civil patrols."

Colonel George Maynes, the US military attache in Guatemala, told me that he and Benedicto Lucas had developed this sweep tactic and that Rios Montt had expanded it.

A US Green Beret, Captain Jesse Garcia showed me how, under Rios Montt, he was training Guatemalan troops in the techniques of how to "destroy towns." (Allan Nairn, "Despite Ban, U.S. Captain Trains Guatemalan Military," Washington Post, October 21, 1982, page 1).

The Guatemalan Catholic Bishops Conference reported in a May 27, 1982 pastoral letter:  "Numerous families have perished, vilely murdered.  Not even the lives of the elderly, pregnant women or innocent children have been respected ... Never in our history has it come to such grave extremes.  These assassinations fall into the category of genocide."

In an interview in the palace that May I asked Rios Montt about killing civilians.  He said: "Look, the problem of the war is not just a question of who is shooting.  For each one who is shooting there are ten who are working behind him."

Rios Montt's senior aide and spokesman, Francisco Bianchi, who was sitting next to him, amplified: "The guerrillas won over many Indian collaborators.  Therefore, the Indians were subversives, right?  And how do you fight subversion?  Clearly you had to kill Indians because they were collaborating with subversion.  And then they would say, 'You're massacring innocent people.'  But they weren't innocent.  They had sold out to subversion."  (Allan Nairn, "Guatemala Can't Take 2 Roads," The New York Times, op ed, July 20, 1982).

I visited the Ixil zone in September, 1982, arriving first in Nebaj.  The towns and much of the Ixil area were under army occupation.  

A foreign health worker said 80% of the people were malnourished.  Many were dying of hunger, measles, and tuberculosis.

Rios Montt's senior commander on scene was a man who called himself Major Tito Arias, but who was actually Otto Perez Molina, the current president of Guatemala.

Subordinates of Rios Montt and Perez Molina described how they tortured and killed civilians.  The soldiers and officers described a strategy that centered on emptying and massacring entire villages.

They said they would kill a quarter to a third of the people, place a quarter to a third of them in camps, and the rest would flee to the mountains where, if the army found them, they would shoot them on sight.

The soldiers said they were still in the midst of intensive sweep operations.

They also said they were under a strict chain of command that placed only three layers of responsibility between themselves and Rios Montt.  In the words of Lieutenant Romeo Sierra at La Perla they were "on a very short leash."

A number of soldiers named specific towns and villages in which they had committed massacres.

One, a corporal named Felipe, in Nebaj, listed Salquil, Sumal Chiquito, Sumal Grande and Acul.

His account was consistent with that of a man from Acul who spoke in secret and described an April massacre in which he said the army shot 24 civilians.  He said the soldiers shot them in the head after sorting villagers into two groups, one of which the soldiers said they would "send to Glory" and the other "to Hell."  He said: "They said that they were executing the law of Rios Montt."

The descriptions of the massacre strategy from soldiers and civilian survivors were consistent.  They also meshed with accounts that I heard elsewhere in the Mayan zones.

(Much of the following text is drawn from Allan Nairn, "The Guns of Guatemala: The merciless mission of Rios Montt's army," The New Republic, April 11, 1983, and from my work in the 1983 documentary film "Skoop!" also known as "Deadline Guatemala" and "Titular de Hoy," done with Jean-Marie Simon and directed by Mikael Wahlforss, EPIDEM Scandinavian TV):

Just outside Nebaj, more than 2,500 campesinos had been resettled on an army airstrip. "They didn't want to leave voluntarily," explained Corporal Felipe, who manned a .50 caliber machine gun in the Nebaj church belfry. "The government put out a call that they would have one month to turn themselves in," he said, referring to a nationwide order from Rios Montt.  "So now the army is in charge of going to get all the people from all these villages."

Sergeant Miguel Raimundo, who was guarding a group of 161 suspected guerrilla collaborators (which included 79 children and 42 women), said, "The problem is that almost all the village people are guerrillas." According to camp records, they had been rounded up in sweeps through the villages of Vijolom, Salquil Grande, Tjolom, Parramos Chiquito, Paob, Vixaj, Quejchip, and Xepium. 

Sergeant Jose Angel, who commanded a La Perla platoon explained:"Before we get to the village, we talk with the soldiers about what they should do and what they shouldn't do. They all discuss it so they have it in their minds. We coordinate it first—we ask, what is our mission?"

Lieutenant Sierra had noted that the sweep commanders had hourly radio contact with headquarters.  He said the superior officer "knows everything.  Everything is controlled."  All field actions had to be reported in the commanders' daily "diary of operations" which was reviewed and criticized in monthly face-to-face evaluations.

Sergeant Jose Angel explained the village-entry procedure: "One patrol enters the village from one point, on another side another patrols enters. We go in before dawn, because everyone is sleeping. If we come in broad daylight they get scared, they see it's the army, and they run because they know the army is coming to get them,"

Rios Montt's army had a clear policy about the meaning and consequences of such behavior. "The people who are doing things outside the law run away," sergeant Jose Angel said. "But the people who aren't doing anything, they stay." He said he had seen cases where "lots of them ran, most of a village. They ran because they knew the army was coming."

Sergeant Miguel Raimundo cited three cases where villages fled en masse. "All the villages around here, like Salquil, Paob, or here in Sumal, they have a horn and there's a villager who watches the road. If the soldiers come, he blows the horn. It's a signal. They all go running."

The soldiers explained that they routinely killed these fleeing, unarmed civilians.

I asked Corporal Felipe how the villagers react when the troops arrive.

"They flee from their homes. They run for the mountain."

"And what do you do?"

"Some we capture alive and others we can't capture alive. When they run and go into the mountains that obligates one to kill them."

"Why?"

"Because they might be guerrillas. If they don't run, the army is not going to kill them. It will protect them."

"Among those you have to kill, what kind of people are they? Are they men or women?"

"At times men, at times women."

"In which villages has this happened?"

"Oh, it's happened in lots of them. In Acul, Salquil, Sumal Chiquito, Sumal Grande."

"In those villages, about how many people did you kill?"

"Not many, a few."

"More than ten? More than twenty? More than a hundred?"

"Oh no, about twenty."

"In each village?"

"Yes, of course. It's not many. More than that were captured alive."

Sergeant Jose Angel recalled a similar experience in the village of Chumansan in the province of Quezaltenango. "When we went in, the people scattered," he said. "We had no choice but to shoot at them. We killed some. . . . Oh, about ten, no more. Most of them got away."

After tracking and shooting the unarmed civilians who fled in fear, the army dealt with the unarmed civilians who remained in the village.

First, Sergeant Jose Angel explained, "We go into a village and take the people out of their houses and search the houses." 

Among the items the soldiers looked for were suspiciously large stocks of grain or beans. The army took what it could use and burned the rest. 

Next, he said, "You ask informers who are the ones that are doing things, things outside the law. And that's when you round up the collaborators. And the collaborators—you question them, interrogate them, get them to speak the truth. Who have they been talking to? Who are the ones who have been coming to the village to speak with them?"

The soldiers often went in with target lists of "collaborators."  The lists were provided by G-2, the military intelligence service headed at that time by General Rios Montt's co-defendant, General Mauricio Rodriguez Sanchez.

The interrogations were generally conducted in the village square with the population looking on. 

I asked Jose Angel how he questioned people. He replied, "Beat them to make them tell the truth, hurt them."

"With what methods?"

"This one, like this," he said as he wrapped his hands around his neck and made a choking sound. "More or less hanging them."

"With what?"

"With a lasso. Each soldier has his lasso."

The day before, in Nebaj, an infantryman who was standing over the bodies of four captured guerrillas demonstrated the interrogation technique he had learned in "Cobra," an army counterinsurgency course for field troops.  [Another soldier said the guerrillas, who had set off a grenade, had been "presented" to Perez Molina for interrogation, "But they still didn't say anything, for better or for worse."]

"Tie them like this," he said, "tie the hands behind, run the cord here [around the neck] and press with a boot [on the chest]. Knot it, and make a tourniquet with a stick, and when they're dying you give it another twist and you ask them again, and if they still don't want to answer you do it again until they talk." 

The sergeants and infantrymen of Nebaj and La Perla said the tourniquet was the most common interrogation technique.  They said that live burial and mutilation by machete were also used.

The soldiers said they expected those they questioned to provide specific information, such as the names of villagers who had talked with or given food to guerrillas. Failure to do so implied guilt, and brought immediate judgment and action. 

"Almost everyone in the villages is a collaborator," said Sergeant Miguel Raimundo. "They don't say anything. They would rather die than talk"

When I asked Miguel Raimundo about the interrogation method, he replied: "We say, if you tell us where the guerrillas are, the army won't kill you. . . . If they collaborate with the army, we don't do anything."

"And if they don't say anything?"

"Well, then they say, 'if you kill me, kill me—because I don't know anything,' and we know they're guerrillas.  They prefer to die rather than say where the companeros are."

According to Sergeant Jose Angel, it was common for suspected collaborators to be pointed out, questioned, and executed all on the same day.

Explaining how he extracted information so quickly, he said, "Well, they don't talk like that voluntarily. You just have to subdue them a little to make them speak the truth."

After the interrogations had been completed, the patrol leader would make a speech to the survivors gathered in the village square.

"We tell the people to change the road they are on, because the road they are on is bad," said Jose Angel. "If they don't change, there is nothing else to do but kill them."

"So you kill them on the spot?"

"Yes, sure. If they don't want the good, there's nothing more to do but bomb their houses."

Jose Angel said that in Solola and Quezaltenengo he had participated in operations of this kind in which more than 500 people were killed

He and other soldiers said that smaller villages were destroyed with Spanish, Israeli, and U.S.-made grenades. Boxes of these grenades could be seen stacked in the Nebaj ammunition dump. 

The soldiers said they also used a 3.5-inch U.S.- made shoulder-held recoilless rocket that was designed as an antitank weapon but is effective against people and straw huts. At the La Perla headquarters, one such launcher was sitting next to boxes of "explosive projectile" rockets from the Iowa Army Ammunition Plant.

F'or larger operations, Jose Angel said, patrols called in army planes and helicopters to bomb the villages. The helicopters were U.S.-manufactured Hueys and Jet Rangers.   The bombs included U.S.-made 50-kilogram Ml/61As, twelve of which were stacked in the base munitions dump in Nebaj. 

Lieutenant Cesar Bonilla, the officer in charge of the Nebaj airstrip resettlement camp said the helicopters were especially useful for catching villagers by surprise.

"When you go in on foot they see the patrol three kilometers away and know you're coming. But with air transport, you land different units in the area, all the units close in rapidly, and the people can't go running away."

Bonilla said that this type of operation could only be executed by several helicopters at once. "With just one helicopter you scare them away and there's no control." 

The United States Congress' temporary refusal to sell spare parts had grounded much of the fleet, so Lieutenant Bonilla was encouraged by reports that the Reagan Administration was considering changing the policy. 

"That would be wonderful," he said. "With six helicopters, for example, the airborne troops would land all at once before they could make a move. The nicest, the ideal, the dream, would be a surprise: suddenly, pow! Helicopters with troops!" As he spoke, he made machine-gun noises and waved his Israeli Galil rifle toward the refugee shacks. "Ta, ta, ta, ta, ta! All at once from the air! Pow! No escape routes. That would be ideal."

The day before this conversation, a family in Bonilla's camp -- interviewed in their shack outside the view of soldiers -- described such an assault on their village. "Two times they came there in helicopters," said one of the men. "They would come in and land and the people would retire and they would always kill a few. They flew over, machine-gunning people from the helicopter." The family said that five were killed in the strafing.

After the torture, the executions, and the burning, strafing and bombing, the next stage of the sweep was to chase the fleeing people through the hills.

"Up here there aren't any villages anymore," said Sergeant Jose Angel, speaking of the patrol areas around La Perla. "There used to be, but then the soldiers came. We knew that such and such a village was involved, so we went to get them. We captured some and the rest of the people from the village ran away. They're hiding in the mountains. Now we're going to the mountains to look for them."

Major Tito -- Otto Perez Molina -- the commander of the Nebaj base, said in mid-September that 2,000 people from the area of Sumal Grande had fled to the mountains and would be pursued by foot patrols and helicopters.

Sergeant Jose Angel said his platoon went on such operations frequently. I asked Jose Angel what his troops did when they found refugees.

"At times we don't find them. We see them but they get away."

"But when you do find them, what do you do?"

"Oh, we kill them."

"Are they a few people or entire villages?"

"No, entire villages. When we entered the villages we killed some and the rest ran away,"

Under the policy of Rios Montt's army, a civilian found outside the army-controlled towns could be in mortal danger.

"We know the poor people from close up and far away," said Sergeant Miguel Raimundo. "If we see someone walking in the mountains, that means he is a subversive. So we try to grab him and ask where he's going; we arrest him. And then we see if he is a guerrilla or not. But those who always walk in the mountains, we know they are guerrillas. Maybe some of them will be children, but we know that they are subversive delinquents. I've been walking in the mountains for a year now, and just in the mountains, one by one, we've captured more than 500 people."

Sergeant Miguel Raimundo also explained that under the army's assumptions a civilian could also be in danger if they never went anywhere: "A woman told me yesterday that the soldiers kill people, that the soldiers killed her husband. But I told her that if the soldiers killed her husband it was because he was a guerrilla. The soldier knows whom to kill. He doesn't kill the innocent, just the guilty. And she said, 'No, my husband wasn't doing anything.' So I said, 'And how do you know it was nothing? How do you know what he was doing outside?' 'No,' she said, 'because he never went anywhere,' 'Yes,' I said, 'That's because he was a collaborator,' "

It was clear from discussions with these soldiers inside the Ixil zone that, under their orders from Rios Montt and their commanders, including Perez Molina, all civilians were potential targets.  Indeed, they were the principal targets.

Lieutenant Romeo Sierra, who directed the sweeps through his patrol area of 20 square kilometers and 10,000 people, told me that thousands of civilians were displaced but that "in the time I've been here [two-and-a-half months] no subversives have fallen. Lots of unarmed people, women refugees, but we haven't had actual combat with guerrillas."  

Lieutenant Sierra also said that "human rights" was an "enemy concept."  In his army training he had been taught that it had been developed "by international Communism."

Years after he had been ousted from power, I interviewed Rios Montt again.  I asked Rios Montt -- a firm believer in the death penalty -- if he thought that he should be tried and executed for his role in the Mayan massacres.

The general leapt to his feet and shouted:  "Yes!  Try me!  Put me against the wall!," but he said he should be tried only if Americans were put on trial too.  (See Allan Nairn, "C.I.A. Death Squad: Americans have been directly involved in Guatemalan Army killings," The Nation, April 17, 1995.)

Specifically, Rios Montt cited President Reagan, who, in the midst of the killings, had said that Rios Montt was getting "a bum rap" on human rights. 

Rios Montt, for his part, had said: "It's not that we have a policy of scorched earth, just a policy of scorched communists."

NOTE TO READERS: News and Comment is looking for assistance with translating blog postings into other languages, and also with fund raising and distributing the blog content more widely. Those interested please get in touch via the e-mail link below. NOTE TO READERS RE. TRANSLATION: Portions of News and Comment are now available in Arabic, Brazilian Portuguese, Danish, French, German, Russian and Spanish translation (click preceding links or Profile link above) but translation help is still needed -- particularly with older postings, in these and all other languages. NOTE TO READERS RE. POTENTIAL EVIDENCE: News and Comment is looking for public and private documents and first-hand information that could develop into evidence regarding war crimes or crimes against humanity by officials. Please forward material via the email link below. Email Me